here we are....so sorry for the delayed post.
It's difficult to know where to begin, with this being such a huge and controversial subject. But, we shall commence to write what God has shown us in his word, and through the wonderful writings of Godly men.
We'll start off with one of our foundational beliefs, and that is the wonderful power of choice that God has given each individual. It started way back in the beginning with Adam and Eve. God told them, "Here's the tree, do not eat of it." We all know the story. Their choice drove them from the garden forever...and brought evil into the world for the first time.
Know ye not; that to whom you yeild your selves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness. Romans 6:16
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root of fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against hte branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore, the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also if they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree wich is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature, into the good olive tree how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree.
For I would not brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conciets... Romans 11:21-25
Note how it refers to ' Them which fell '. Here we have a good olive tree, and because of unbelief, some of it's branches were cut off. God in His mercy, took us and ' grafted ' us into this good tree. He then warns us against boasting to the fallen bracnches. For the root (God!) is bearing us up and giving us life and power, not us the root.
He then goes on to say how we must continue in His goodness; otherwise we also shall be cut off.
If we choose to follow, he will lead us every step of the way...right to the gates of eternity. if we choose to have an evil heart of unbelief, he will cut us off.
He then says that they that disbelieved, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in, for God is able to graff them in again.
We can clearly see the picture He is trying to paint. Us as Christian people have made the choice to believe. To be graffed into Christ- to be filled with His spirit. In order to practice the presence of God we must make daily choices to let His spirit have free reign. If we, through an evil heart of unbelief, start erring, and continue to let rebellion have it's way, Christ says we shall be cut off. For if we live after the flesh we shall die. Romans 8:13
Paul says " I keep my body and bring it under subjection, lest by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast away."
Now the question comes...Is God sitting up there with a stern look and a stick in His hand just waiting till we cross that line and he can cut us off? God forbid. Jeuse sits at the right hand of God, interceding for us. (Romans 8:34) All heaven is on our side. Yet if we allow the devil to bring in rebellion slowly into our hearts, and we choose to turn our face against God, he will not force us into repentance. It is our choice.
Once we have made the choice to follow him...Oh, GLORY! His mercy is indescribable.
You may say...." Well, I sin every day....am I not willfully sinning when i lose my temper? Does God not 'cut me off ' because I willfullly sinned?"
Again, God sees our hearts. Are we saying "I reject Christ. I'm mad. I want nothing to do with Him anymore. I'm ready to quit. ", or did I fall into temptation, see my need of Christ, and repent? Were it not for his mercy, we would be cut off in the beginning. He sees our innermost heart. We believe that by God's grace, we do not have to sin every day, but wonderful, indescribable victory, can be ours- daily. PRAISE the Lord!
......to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:6
The scripture says, in the latter times men shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Often it reminds us to take heed, lest we fall. We must be in prayer, living day by day with our hearts in tune with our Jesus. Then, and only then can we live out a vibrant christian life.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But Praise God, Jesus came to free us from the law of sin and death, loose our chains and set us ALL free! (note the 'ALL' calvanists)
Well, this is a rather scatterbrained excuse for a 'civilized' debate, but hey, it's a start I guess.
Let us all press toward the mark of the high calling, and look diligently at the prize set before us!
Wednesday, February 24, 2010
Saturday, January 30, 2010
1st Affirmative
I'm kind of at a loss as to how exactly, I should begin this debate, such a large subject with many variables, but I find myself in John 17 thinking of no better place to begin than "The Lord's Prayer" itself.
Christ said that first I was God's, and then God gave me to His Son, Jesus.(a) You see, I didn't choose to become God's and then choose again to be given to Christ Jesus. I was; in spite of me.(b) I was not God's at the point of salvation. I did not become the Son's at the moment of salvation. I was God's, and then after being given into Jesus' hands I was made to know the way, the truth, and the life.(c)
Christ then pleads for God to keep us just as He kept us.(d) It's not me holding onto Jesus or keeping myself in Him. He's keeping me.
However this theology is not only found in John 17. Christ spoke these same words (ideas, if you will) in multiple places, through certain of His writers.
In Ephesians we find this exact same doctrine, though it goes a little bit further, expressing clearly our security we find in Jesus Christ. It too, like the above, begins with pre-salvation and our predestination by Christ.(e) It goes on to our sanctification: salvation by the removal of sin,(f) which causes us to obtain an inheritance.(g) Now get the picture here, we have been willed an inheritance. We do not, as of yet, hold that inheritance in our hands, but because we are now a child, we have been willed that inheritance, which in proper sense makes us to have "obtained" it. BUT, instead of asking us to simply trust His promise of inheritance, Christ in His mercy, saw fit to give us an earnest to that inheritance. The earnest being the Holy Spirit himself.(h) Now you may say that I can reject that will with the inheritance, and even throw away the earnest itself, but alas this is not the case. For we are sealed with the Holy Ghost.(i) It says that at the point of salvation ("after that ye believed") we are sealed with the Holy Ghost. When Christ washes away our sin, His Holy Spirit comes in and indwells us.(j) That is the sealing. The Holy Spirit comes in, and He's in to stay. No where in the Bible do we find the removal of the Holy Spirit from a Christian's life. We are warned not to quench the Spirit(k), but never is there any hint to it's removal. David himself, after first murder and then adultery, acknowledges the indwelling of the Spirit.(l)
A quick look into Romans 8 and 9 and I'll be through. I don't know where it is laid out more clearly than in Rom. 8:31-39. Jesus Christ forknew those whom he predestinated. Those whom He predestinated, He called. Those whom he called, He justified. And those whom he justified, them he also glorified. Let's do a little layman's defining here; make sure we're together. I'd like to believe that Christ foreknew who would choose Him and who would deny Him and so it was those that he predestinated. But I don't have any scripture to back that up, so I'll not claim it as written in stone. Regardless, He foreknew certain ones, and so predestinated them. Now these also, he called to salvation; it says whom he called he justified. Now just a quick insert here: when you get down to the core and the nitty gritty, man doesn't have this infinite will that gives him sovereign choice. This says that everyone whom Christ calls, He justifies.(m) So He only calls those whom he saves. But he only calls those whom he predestinated, and He only predestinated those whom He foreknew. Do you see the pattern here? So then, those whom He justifies them He also glorifies. It is at this point that He honors us(n)(why, I'll never understand) and is not ashamed to call us brethren.(o) After a few more verses of dealings concerning Christians, Paul makes us to understand again the sufficiency of God's grace. It's not just this one time deal. He says that nothing can separate us from the love of God that we have through Him.(p) I heard these verses dealt on by a very adamant denier of eternal security once, and what I never could understand is that he never got the point of "no other creature". He thought that could be a mouse, the devil or who knows maybe even Christ himself, but I guess he just never took into consideration that he himself was included in that phrase. O well.
So on to Romans 9! Here we find that He is the potter, we are the clay. Now we hear this illustration used over and over again, referring to the refining of a Christian, to the extent that we actually start believing that that's what this is talking about, but it's not. It says that Christ is the potter and He makes some vessels unto honor, and some unto dishonor.(q) This is clearly talking about the saved and the unsaved as he(Paul) goes on to explain why Christ might perform such deeds. He proposes that Christ molds these dishonored vessels to the purpose that He might more thoroughly glorify His honored vessels.(r) Now, Paul knew the questions would come flying: why would Christ not give the choice?(s) And so he gives the unsurpassable answer that no Christian will find rest till he realizes it's truth "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?"(t) Sorry to say, but we don't have answers for everything, and we wont. We do not understand a lot of things, and we wont. We couldn't truly trust Him if we did! If you don't believe me with this whole idea of vessels unto honor and and dishonor, read the previous verses. Those are what he likens this analogy to, anyway. He said that He loved Jacob and hated Esau(u) so the question was asked, "Is there unrighteousness with God".(v) In other words, is not Christ partial here? Paul's not talking about the consequences of Esau's life choices, He's talking about Christ having predetermined the entire lives of Jacob and Esau while they were yet in the womb.(w) He then uses the example of Pharaoh.(x) As it is said: He turneth the heart whithersoever He wills.(y) And so He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and others he hardeneth.(z)
Lest His grace be all but sufficient...He is the potter, I am the clay.
a. John 17:2
b. John 17:9
c. John 17:2,3,6,7,8
d. John 17:11
e. Eph. 1:5
f. Eph. 1:7
g. Eph. 1:11
h. Eph. 1:14
i. Eph. 1:13
j. Rom. 8:11
k. I Thess. 5:19
l. Ps. 51:11
m. Rom. 8:31
n. Ps 91:15
o. Heb. 2:11
p. Rom. 8:38,39
q. Rom. 9:21
r. Rom 9:22,23
s. Rom 9:19
t. Rom. 9:20
u. Rom. 9:13
v. Rom. 9:14
w. Rom. 9:11,12
x. Rom. 9:17
y. Prov. 21:1
z. Rom. 9:18
Christ said that first I was God's, and then God gave me to His Son, Jesus.(a) You see, I didn't choose to become God's and then choose again to be given to Christ Jesus. I was; in spite of me.(b) I was not God's at the point of salvation. I did not become the Son's at the moment of salvation. I was God's, and then after being given into Jesus' hands I was made to know the way, the truth, and the life.(c)
Christ then pleads for God to keep us just as He kept us.(d) It's not me holding onto Jesus or keeping myself in Him. He's keeping me.
However this theology is not only found in John 17. Christ spoke these same words (ideas, if you will) in multiple places, through certain of His writers.
In Ephesians we find this exact same doctrine, though it goes a little bit further, expressing clearly our security we find in Jesus Christ. It too, like the above, begins with pre-salvation and our predestination by Christ.(e) It goes on to our sanctification: salvation by the removal of sin,(f) which causes us to obtain an inheritance.(g) Now get the picture here, we have been willed an inheritance. We do not, as of yet, hold that inheritance in our hands, but because we are now a child, we have been willed that inheritance, which in proper sense makes us to have "obtained" it. BUT, instead of asking us to simply trust His promise of inheritance, Christ in His mercy, saw fit to give us an earnest to that inheritance. The earnest being the Holy Spirit himself.(h) Now you may say that I can reject that will with the inheritance, and even throw away the earnest itself, but alas this is not the case. For we are sealed with the Holy Ghost.(i) It says that at the point of salvation ("after that ye believed") we are sealed with the Holy Ghost. When Christ washes away our sin, His Holy Spirit comes in and indwells us.(j) That is the sealing. The Holy Spirit comes in, and He's in to stay. No where in the Bible do we find the removal of the Holy Spirit from a Christian's life. We are warned not to quench the Spirit(k), but never is there any hint to it's removal. David himself, after first murder and then adultery, acknowledges the indwelling of the Spirit.(l)
A quick look into Romans 8 and 9 and I'll be through. I don't know where it is laid out more clearly than in Rom. 8:31-39. Jesus Christ forknew those whom he predestinated. Those whom He predestinated, He called. Those whom he called, He justified. And those whom he justified, them he also glorified. Let's do a little layman's defining here; make sure we're together. I'd like to believe that Christ foreknew who would choose Him and who would deny Him and so it was those that he predestinated. But I don't have any scripture to back that up, so I'll not claim it as written in stone. Regardless, He foreknew certain ones, and so predestinated them. Now these also, he called to salvation; it says whom he called he justified. Now just a quick insert here: when you get down to the core and the nitty gritty, man doesn't have this infinite will that gives him sovereign choice. This says that everyone whom Christ calls, He justifies.(m) So He only calls those whom he saves. But he only calls those whom he predestinated, and He only predestinated those whom He foreknew. Do you see the pattern here? So then, those whom He justifies them He also glorifies. It is at this point that He honors us(n)(why, I'll never understand) and is not ashamed to call us brethren.(o) After a few more verses of dealings concerning Christians, Paul makes us to understand again the sufficiency of God's grace. It's not just this one time deal. He says that nothing can separate us from the love of God that we have through Him.(p) I heard these verses dealt on by a very adamant denier of eternal security once, and what I never could understand is that he never got the point of "no other creature". He thought that could be a mouse, the devil or who knows maybe even Christ himself, but I guess he just never took into consideration that he himself was included in that phrase. O well.
So on to Romans 9! Here we find that He is the potter, we are the clay. Now we hear this illustration used over and over again, referring to the refining of a Christian, to the extent that we actually start believing that that's what this is talking about, but it's not. It says that Christ is the potter and He makes some vessels unto honor, and some unto dishonor.(q) This is clearly talking about the saved and the unsaved as he(Paul) goes on to explain why Christ might perform such deeds. He proposes that Christ molds these dishonored vessels to the purpose that He might more thoroughly glorify His honored vessels.(r) Now, Paul knew the questions would come flying: why would Christ not give the choice?(s) And so he gives the unsurpassable answer that no Christian will find rest till he realizes it's truth "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?"(t) Sorry to say, but we don't have answers for everything, and we wont. We do not understand a lot of things, and we wont. We couldn't truly trust Him if we did! If you don't believe me with this whole idea of vessels unto honor and and dishonor, read the previous verses. Those are what he likens this analogy to, anyway. He said that He loved Jacob and hated Esau(u) so the question was asked, "Is there unrighteousness with God".(v) In other words, is not Christ partial here? Paul's not talking about the consequences of Esau's life choices, He's talking about Christ having predetermined the entire lives of Jacob and Esau while they were yet in the womb.(w) He then uses the example of Pharaoh.(x) As it is said: He turneth the heart whithersoever He wills.(y) And so He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and others he hardeneth.(z)
Lest His grace be all but sufficient...He is the potter, I am the clay.
a. John 17:2
b. John 17:9
c. John 17:2,3,6,7,8
d. John 17:11
e. Eph. 1:5
f. Eph. 1:7
g. Eph. 1:11
h. Eph. 1:14
i. Eph. 1:13
j. Rom. 8:11
k. I Thess. 5:19
l. Ps. 51:11
m. Rom. 8:31
n. Ps 91:15
o. Heb. 2:11
p. Rom. 8:38,39
q. Rom. 9:21
r. Rom 9:22,23
s. Rom 9:19
t. Rom. 9:20
u. Rom. 9:13
v. Rom. 9:14
w. Rom. 9:11,12
x. Rom. 9:17
y. Prov. 21:1
z. Rom. 9:18
Friday, January 22, 2010
Introducing...
...the Civilized Debate Circle.
We are civilized, open-minded, and balanced debaters with no intention of putting the other side down or bringing ourselves up. We are Christian brothers and sisters creating enjoyment out of the exercising of our mind faculties. We will be civilized and respectful, showing ourselves to be gentlemen and ladies as well as true followers of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Current topic to be discussed...
Eternal Security: True or False?
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