Saturday, January 30, 2010

1st Affirmative

I'm kind of at a loss as to how exactly, I should begin this debate, such a large subject with many variables, but I find myself in John 17 thinking of no better place to begin than "The Lord's Prayer" itself.
Christ said that first I was God's, and then God gave me to His Son, Jesus.(a) You see, I didn't choose to become God's and then choose again to be given to Christ Jesus. I was; in spite of me.(b) I was not God's at the point of salvation. I did not become the Son's at the moment of salvation. I was God's, and then after being given into Jesus' hands I was made to know the way, the truth, and the life.(c)
Christ then pleads for God to keep us just as He kept us.(d) It's not me holding onto Jesus or keeping myself in Him. He's keeping me.
However this theology is not only found in John 17. Christ spoke these same words (ideas, if you will) in multiple places, through certain of His writers.
In Ephesians we find this exact same doctrine, though it goes a little bit further, expressing clearly our security we find in Jesus Christ. It too, like the above, begins with pre-salvation and our predestination by Christ.(e) It goes on to our sanctification: salvation by the removal of sin,(f) which causes us to obtain an inheritance.(g) Now get the picture here, we have been willed an inheritance. We do not, as of yet, hold that inheritance in our hands, but because we are now a child, we have been willed that inheritance, which in proper sense makes us to have "obtained" it. BUT, instead of asking us to simply trust His promise of inheritance, Christ in His mercy, saw fit to give us an earnest to that inheritance. The earnest being the Holy Spirit himself.(h) Now you may say that I can reject that will with the inheritance, and even throw away the earnest itself, but alas this is not the case. For we are sealed with the Holy Ghost.(i) It says that at the point of salvation ("after that ye believed") we are sealed with the Holy Ghost. When Christ washes away our sin, His Holy Spirit comes in and indwells us.(j) That is the sealing. The Holy Spirit comes in, and He's in to stay. No where in the Bible do we find the removal of the Holy Spirit from a Christian's life. We are warned not to quench the Spirit(k), but never is there any hint to it's removal. David himself, after first murder and then adultery, acknowledges the indwelling of the Spirit.(l)
A quick look into Romans 8 and 9 and I'll be through. I don't know where it is laid out more clearly than in Rom. 8:31-39. Jesus Christ forknew those whom he predestinated. Those whom He predestinated, He called. Those whom he called, He justified. And those whom he justified, them he also glorified. Let's do a little layman's defining here; make sure we're together. I'd like to believe that Christ foreknew who would choose Him and who would deny Him and so it was those that he predestinated. But I don't have any scripture to back that up, so I'll not claim it as written in stone. Regardless, He foreknew certain ones, and so predestinated them. Now these also, he called to salvation; it says whom he called he justified. Now just a quick insert here: when you get down to the core and the nitty gritty, man doesn't have this infinite will that gives him sovereign choice. This says that everyone whom Christ calls, He justifies.(m) So He only calls those whom he saves. But he only calls those whom he predestinated, and He only predestinated those whom He foreknew. Do you see the pattern here? So then, those whom He justifies them He also glorifies. It is at this point that He honors us(n)(why, I'll never understand) and is not ashamed to call us brethren.(o) After a few more verses of dealings concerning Christians, Paul makes us to understand again the sufficiency of God's grace. It's not just this one time deal. He says that nothing can separate us from the love of God that we have through Him.(p) I heard these verses dealt on by a very adamant denier of eternal security once, and what I never could understand is that he never got the point of "no other creature". He thought that could be a mouse, the devil or who knows maybe even Christ himself, but I guess he just never took into consideration that he himself was included in that phrase. O well.
So on to Romans 9! Here we find that He is the potter, we are the clay. Now we hear this illustration used over and over again, referring to the refining of a Christian, to the extent that we actually start believing that that's what this is talking about, but it's not. It says that Christ is the potter and He makes some vessels unto honor, and some unto dishonor.(q) This is clearly talking about the saved and the unsaved as he(Paul) goes on to explain why Christ might perform such deeds. He proposes that Christ molds these dishonored vessels to the purpose that He might more thoroughly glorify His honored vessels.(r) Now, Paul knew the questions would come flying: why would Christ not give the choice?(s) And so he gives the unsurpassable answer that no Christian will find rest till he realizes it's truth "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?"(t) Sorry to say, but we don't have answers for everything, and we wont. We do not understand a lot of things, and we wont. We couldn't truly trust Him if we did! If you don't believe me with this whole idea of vessels unto honor and and dishonor, read the previous verses. Those are what he likens this analogy to, anyway. He said that He loved Jacob and hated Esau(u) so the question was asked, "Is there unrighteousness with God".(v) In other words, is not Christ partial here? Paul's not talking about the consequences of Esau's life choices, He's talking about Christ having predetermined the entire lives of Jacob and Esau while they were yet in the womb.(w) He then uses the example of Pharaoh.(x) As it is said: He turneth the heart whithersoever He wills.(y) And so He has mercy on whom He will have mercy and others he hardeneth.(z)
Lest His grace be all but sufficient...He is the potter, I am the clay.

a. John 17:2
b. John 17:9
c. John 17:2,3,6,7,8
d. John 17:11
e. Eph. 1:5
f. Eph. 1:7
g. Eph. 1:11
h. Eph. 1:14
i. Eph. 1:13
j. Rom. 8:11
k. I Thess. 5:19
l. Ps. 51:11
m. Rom. 8:31
n. Ps 91:15
o. Heb. 2:11
p. Rom. 8:38,39
q. Rom. 9:21
r. Rom 9:22,23
s. Rom 9:19
t. Rom. 9:20
u. Rom. 9:13
v. Rom. 9:14
w. Rom. 9:11,12
x. Rom. 9:17
y. Prov. 21:1
z. Rom. 9:18

10 comments:

  1. So what do u do some one that would get saved and then he would be a drunk the rest of is life???? just wondering how u would look at that. Im not sure that i would say that the spirit of God left him but he left God... Like He just gave up on God... You would honestly say that God would still accept him on judgment day????

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  2. Thanks for the article Lyd...have patience with me cuz I am very busy as you well understand. But I will post soon...hopefully.
    Very interesting though to read it 'all written out' instead of us getting ourselves all mixed up while we try to work.=)
    <3 Frieda

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  3. Mr. Lee,
    The first and foremost answer would be simply that God alone is judge. We cannot judge as to whether that person was ever saved or not. Now seeing as that is a hypothetical question, and I know of no such cases, I personally don't find that person in the Bible to be a genuine believer. Romans tells us that we are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, so though at times we may rebel, it is not a continued state of being in which can live the rest of our lives as Christians.

    If the Holy Spirit does not leave you on His own, there is only one other way for him to be removed and that would be for you to kick Him out. Because He cannot indwell you as an unsaved soul, if you're to lose your salvation he has to be removed.

    I don't even begin to try to understand God. :D

    Miss Frieda,
    Take your time. I totally understand!
    (That's why my belated reply)

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  4. Well yes that was going to be my next question for you... I would say the same exept that man can leave the spirit of God... Like If I would go my own way in life God would simply let me have my own way after a while... Look at Pharoh, God gave him many chances but after seeing he would not repent God destroyed him.... So how about some1 that is a good person but simply doesnt have a victorious life?

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  5. Mr Lee,
    Do you acknowledge the fact that we can kick the Holy Spirit out from inside us?

    Pharaoh: wonderful example!
    We read in Romans 9 "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Now at first we might try to disagree concerning the context, but unfortunately we cannot. (Or at least I don't think so! :D ) Anyway, we find the context in the following verse "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Which obviously refers back to Exodus 9:12-16.So once again God's sovereignty reigns supreme. It was He that hardened Pharaoh's heart, it was He that stopped the ears.

    Are you speaking about a Christian or just anybody? If you're talking about a Christian, I think that pretty much defines "American Christianity". We're Christians, but we don't live victorious Christian lives. I believe that the reason for this is simply because we have not gotten beyond the fundamentals. We do not understand the "Christ in us". (That could take us on a long trail!) If you're addressing non-believers, than they aren't good people whether we'd like to think of them as such or not. We look at all these good and moral unbelievers and wish that some Christians we know would be a little more like them. It's just one more of those totally non-biblical ideas that we've caught on to. They are not good people. They are wicked people. Yeah, they may be living by godly *principles*, but they are evil sinners before God. So they are not a good person and they cannot living a victorious life.

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  6. Yes i think we can kick the Holy Spirit from us... I was talking about christian....
    In Hebrews 3 verse 7 to 11 it talks about the children of Israel going astray in thier hearts and Gods wrath being on them so they could not enter the land of rest... Then it goes on th say in verse 12 that we need to beware lest we depart.... well i'll just give the verse. ( Beware, bretherm, lest there be in you an evel heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.) Then verse 13 says we should exhort eachother daily lest we be hardned by sin... i take it that we could be hardend by sin even if we are the children of God... Verse 14 goes on to say(For we have become partakers of christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.... It says were partakers with christ IF we remain steadfast to the end...
    Not sure if that makes sence to you or not....lol i just take it that if we are christians if we remain steadfast to the end... IDK... Just a thought... sorry im in an awful hurry prolly have alot of misspelled words i didn't prof read it... gotta run....

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  7. ^ Is the Holy Spirit simply a “houseguest”, so to speak, whom you may kick out when you get tired of Him?

    II Timothy 2: 19-20--Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

    That would indicate to me that there are some Christians who will not be honored before the Father on judgment day because they did not live a victorious Christian life, but neither will they be put into hell. When you receive Christ as your savior your life is redeemed and sealed; your life is no longer yours, but Christ’s, and you cannot choose to walk away from that.

    Analogy: If you buy something, ok we’ll say a cat since I’m the resident cat lover. I buy a cat. Now I own him. His life is mine to do whatever I want with, whether I want to give him to my brothers for target practice or whether I want to let him be a fat, lazy indoor cat; his life is mine. This cat one day decides that hey, he doesn’t really like living at my place. I ask him to do too much work…he’s leaving. So he packs his bags and goes off, saying to himself “whew, I’m sure glad that lady doesn’t own me anymore!” But is that really accurate? I do still own my silly, ungrateful cat. But he thinks he’s free, so he just bops along living his own life, until one day he gets hit by a car and sadly, dies. I happen to be walking down that road later in the day, and I see him there, realize that that is my cat that has been killed, and I sit down by the side of the road and probably cry because I’m a girl, but also because that was my cat and I loved him, and owned him, even though he’d sinfully run off and I hadn’t seen hide nor hair of him in weeks.

    Now that might be an idiotic analogy, but you’ll have to forgive me. :-)

    Do you see what I’m saying, though? The cat cannot kick me to the curb, because I picked him up out of the animal shelter or whatever, and I took him home, cleaned him up, fed him, loved him, and protected him. He's mine and there's nothing he can do about it.

    You can, however, choose to be a defeated, backslidden, Christian who is not walking with the Lord, and sadly many do. In your example of the man who is converted and then lives the rest of his life as a drunk, I would say that that man was either never truly saved or he is a very defeated Christian who has hardened his heart to the speaking of the Lord.

    I was discussing this with my dad awhile ago and he said that if you believe that your works get you to heaven it would make perfect sense to believe that you could decide you didn’t want to go to heaven after all, but since I believe that it is by grace that we are saved, through faith, not of works…I believe firmly that my Lord has a place prepared for me in heaven that nothing, not even my own stupidity and stubbornness, can take away. And for that I am very grateful, because I am stubborn, and I do want my own way. And sometimes I really mess up. But I’m trusting my soul to Jesus, who owns my life, and nothing can separate me from His love.

    (And no, I am NOT a Calvinist. But that's a different discussion for a different day.)

    God bless-

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  8. cat's and their owners and ppl and their walk with God are two very different things. In other words, you can make an anology to fit anything you want.....what you need is pure Bible to back it up.

    I shall post soon.....really. Very sorry for the long delay. -frieda

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  9. Yes i shall post soon to... Btw we dont believe in the works thing either... But the bible does say by your fruits u shall know them....

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  10. Eternal Security - redefined

    I refuse in anyway to justify a Christian's sinful lifestyle. Which from what I hear, the term Eternal Security is usually interpretted to justify such.
    My whole premis is that a true Christian will be conformed to His image. Although one may wander for a short period of time, he will not live his entire life in the flesh. I know of more than one case in which a Christian has wandered, but, as has been foreordained, they are now living for Christ.

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